I am oft reminded of the story of the man with the can of Elephant Repellent. One day a neighbor sees the man scattering powder around the edge of his yard and asks what's up.
"It's elephant repellent." said the man.
"Why do you need elephant repellent?" asked the neighbor.
"Because I don't want to be trampled." replied the man.
"But this is Kansas, there are no elephants around here!" said the neighbor.
"See how good it works?" said the man. "Think what it would be like if I wasn't treating my lawn!"
With that in mind, I received my sample of UV-Killer from Dan Gutting at Atsko. You may remember that Dan and I started a conversation regarding UV-Killer back on 9/22/2008 on this very weblog. No? Here's the link:
UV Killers
Since then Dan and I have been going back and forth over that post. Finally Dan sent me a bottle of UV-Killer and instructions for doing a test. I did not have the UV bulb he said was necessary-- a 350nm bulb. This would be the same sort of bulb you see at night clubs. However, I did have an incandescent black light. So I ran some tests anyway.
Yep, if you paint UV-Killer on a sheet of copier paper and put it under my black light, you can see a difference. On camo? On a piece of Hunter Orange fabric? On anything except that piece of copier paper and the cotton swab I used to paint the UV-Killer on? Nope.
If you read through the comments after the original post you see this from Dan Gutting:
Dear Shaman,
Nothing is conclusive because you are using an incondescent bulb.If nothing glows at all you may have "selected" clothing over the years that you were successful with. I would suggest that the reason why you were successful with these pieces may be that they don't glow. If you have any interest in evaluating your need for U-V-Killer or the effectiveness of it you will need to get a 350BLB flourescent light.
Sincerely, Dan
Dan, it is pretty obvious to me that my testing of this stuff is going nowhere. No, I didn't cherry pick fabric from my collection that had a track record of success. These were just remnants that were on sale and went into a big bin waiting for a project. I dug down to the bottom and found things like Crumley's original Trebark. Out of all that camo fabric, and all my hunting clothes, I could not find anything that fluoresced except the hunter orange vests and hats. All the fabric I picked for the test had never seen the inside of a washing machine, had never been treated with anything. It came off the bolt at the store and got shelved in my basement. The stuff that I deliberately treated with detergent with UV brighteners stayed dull under the light.
Furthermore, the hunter orange fabric I used in the test was a swatch from the poncho that I made for my two kids so they would have legal orange on when they went out hunting this year. Both kids killed their deer wearing day-glo hunter orange ponchos made from that fabric. I'd call them darn lucky, especially wearing hunter orange ponchos made from some miraculous material that UV-Killer can't seem to touch.
Here are the details of all the tests.
UV Killer Tests 081106
Dan, if you want to send me the special bulb, I'll be more than happy to repeat the tests and publish the results. For now, I have satisfied myself that your myth is
busted. Let me refresh my offer from last month:
. . . you can send me a day-glow UV-radioactive clown suit, and a big day-glo UV painted sign that says "DANGER: HUNTER" and I'll wear the suit and sit in my treestand under the sign all during season as long as you agree to publish all my kill photos in full page ads wherever you are currently advertising. Frankly, I do not think the clown suit or the sign will make much difference to my success as long as I can treat them with a little baking soda to get the stink off.
I'm not the Myth Busters. In fact, I am a practicing shaman; we live for myths and rituals. This all looks like a hunter doing some arcane cleansing ritual to get rid of the unseen evil spirits to me. I dig that. I would not want to see UV Killer go away anymore than I would like to hunt under a sky devoid of Orion.
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15 comments:
I feel suckered in too !
I am a first time hunter, and wanted to learn as much as I can before heading out for a very limited Wisconsin deer (gun) season (9 days).
I had just ordered all new camo gear online from Cabela's and came across his site while waiting for my new stuff to arrive.
I already had a 24" florescent black light that is exceptionally bright (that we use to light up the spiderwebs outside at Halloween). So, I went into my laundry room and turned off the lights, and to my amazement, it looked like a crime scene. So panicking, I located the product (U-V-Killer) and called the store to reserve it, then picked it up on my way home from work, where I found all my new gear waiting for me. All of this is in Realtree AP HD, from various manufactures and materials:
Jacket(Polyester shell)4in1 Parka-Cabelas Brand
Pants (Insulated)- Herters Brand
Shirts (uninsulated cotton)- Cabela's Brand
Gloves (MT050)- Scentlok Brand,
plus I had already purchased a Redhead Brand Blaze-Orange:
Hat (reversible camo/blaze)and a
Vest (polyester).
Now I had already done the black-light test on the blaze orange, and I thought for sure it would be an enormous problem. So I get everything out of the box, tried it on, then began my test, and low and behold, NOTHING LIT UP, nothing new anyway. So next I get out the fleece reversible hat and orange vest, and the bottle of U-V-Killer I just spent $10 for, and started spraying, No noticeable difference. I soaked the hat and extremely thin poly vest, not realizing (cause it's relatively dark) that it's all dripping down as the items cannot absorb anymore. No difference !
My personal conclusion, SNAKE OIL!
This product did not have any effect on reducing the wavelength that I was seeing, and is probably unnecessary as camo clothes already had no florescence to begin with.
My opinion, your tests are accurate, and the product does nothing.
John, Ingleside-IL
Welcome to the sport. It sounds like you've got a good start.
Well, Dan at Atsko is sending me a UV bulb to repeat my tests. We'll see.
Of course, I don't buy much of what folks claim about deer to begin with. Last week I was in an open treestand, with my UV-Radioactive poncho on (the sample from the test) and eating goose liver on crackers and watching all sorts of deer come by and pay me no nevermind at all. The stand was only 12 feet off the ground and my scent was blowing all over half of them. Some of the deer were downwind of me and some were close enough for a bow shot if I'd been so armed.
On top of it all, I had a herd of turkeys feeding right under me. One even went after a goose liver cracker that I'd dropped. Now that's icky!!!
Now I'm sure that if I'd not taken a shower that morning, the deer would have winded me, but all it took was water and sodium bicarb-- not $10/bottle preparations and a $300 MOP suit.
If a deer got hinky on me, all I had to do was stay put for a bit, and she'd just lower her head and go back to feeding.
PS:
Cabelas has everything, but wingsupply.com and sportsmansguide.com have it cheaper. Now that Walmart has stopped selling deer hunting stuff in my area, I'm always on the prowl for a good source of hunting supplies.
Check Wing Supply's Close-Outs for great deals. I haunt Sportsman's Guide for mil-surp stuff. All my kids are outfitted in mil-surp camo. We all wear mil-surp wool sweaters, balaklavas, and gloves. Both vendors have good deals on treestands.
I wonder why you have not posted about tis since you've received the blacklight??
AH!
But I did!!! Follow this link:
http://blackholecoffeehouse.blogspot.com/2008/12/last-bunch-of-uv-killer-tests.html
The bottom line: more snake oil.
Hm. I've used it frequently. I do find that the only new products that need it are when you buy blaze orange. Or cheap camo sometimes. And often snow camo will be made from UV brightener embedded fabric. So I just sprayed my new orange vest with the little bit of bottle I have left. Shining my light on it (You really do need the BLB bulb not the BL bulb) you can see specks where the UV killer is actually on the fabric, and where it isn't. It's very obvious. Maybe I'll take you a pic and post it for you. Now I have to locate another bottle and I'm not having much luck locally.
Ok here are my pictures taken with a Canon Rebel 2ti. The first one is just the ambient light. The 2nd is taken in the dark with a fluorescent BLB bulb. Sorry I didn't get the focus right on some of them. But you can see where the UV killer's active ingredients actually did land. Before I treated this item, the orange was indeed bright and glowing and not mottled looking in any way. I added some water to my UV killer bottle because I had so little left. But apparently it doesn't do much good to do this, as it doesn't spread it around so well. This was a bottle from last year. Normally these bottles will completely coagulate in a year on the shelf, but they seem to have improved in this area as I was still able to spray it all out of the bottle at least. Not perfect, but at least improved shelf life. I have wasted many bottles by not using it up in the past.
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/ambientlightorangeUV.jpg
Here you notice a little piece of paper (which is often UV brightener treated) stuck to the fabric. To the right in the pic is the BLB bulb.
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/UVkillerorange1.JPG
Here you can really see where the splatters are on the white upc tag, and parts of the tag that got almost nothing.
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/closeuptagUVkiller.JPG
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/closeupUVkillerorange.JPG
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/closeupUVkillerorange2.JPG
The ambient light shot is actually the speckled treated fabric but in the ambient light we cannot see this. Deer likely can't see it either during the day, because the ambient light overcomes the UV light. But in low light conditions, in the shadows of the trees later in the day, or right at last shooting light when most people see their deer, the deer will see it.
I know that muskrats can see it so it's not much of a stretch to say deer do. I used to lie in wait for muskrats on my mom's shoreline because we thought they were digging up her shoreline retaining wall (probably not, but what did I know, I was a teenager), but they figured me out pretty quickly and whenever I was there standing motionless in the trees, they would give the property a wide berth and swim by way out in the lake. I never knew why until I read about the UV stuff. I haven't been back home to check out my theory since then, but have come upon deer many times in the dark that didn't know what I was until they got close.
It would be nice to have some controlled studies though. For example, train deer that there is food in a UV treated container. (set several containers out in the field, identical except one treated with UV brighteners and one then treated with UV Killer, move them around so you know they are not going by memory, but using their vision. Obviously smell will have some effect so hopefully you will only study the deer that approach from upwind). When they are consistently going straight to the UV treated container from upwind for food, treat the container and move it and see if they can find it again. Something along those lines.
Ok here are my pictures taken with a Canon Rebel 2ti. The first one is just the ambient light. The 2nd is taken in the dark with a fluorescent BLB bulb. Sorry I didn't get the focus right on some of them. But you can see where the UV killer's active ingredients actually did land. Before I treated this item, the orange was indeed bright and glowing and not mottled looking in any way. I added some water to my UV killer bottle because I had so little left. But apparently it doesn't do much good to do this, as it doesn't spread it around so well. This was a bottle from last year. Normally these bottles will completely coagulate in a year on the shelf, but they seem to have improved in this area as I was still able to spray it all out of the bottle at least. Not perfect, but at least improved shelf life. I have wasted many bottles by not using it up in the past.
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/ambientlightorangeUV.jpg
Here you notice a little piece of paper (which is often UV brightener treated) stuck to the fabric. To the right in the pic is the BLB bulb.
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/UVkillerorange1.JPG
Here you can really see where the splatters are on the white upc tag, and parts of the tag that got almost nothing.
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/closeuptagUVkiller.JPG
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/closeupUVkillerorange.JPG
http://web.me.com/jaes.coyle/pj/uvkiller/closeupUVkillerorange2.JPG
The ambient light shot is actually the speckled treated fabric but in the ambient light we cannot see this. Deer likely can't see it either during the day, because the ambient light overcomes the UV light. But in low light conditions, in the shadows of the trees later in the day, or right at last shooting light when most people see their deer, the deer will see it.
I know that muskrats can see it so it's not much of a stretch to say deer do. I used to lie in wait for muskrats on my mom's shoreline because we thought they were digging up her shoreline retaining wall (probably not, but what did I know, I was a teenager), but they figured me out pretty quickly and whenever I was there standing motionless in the trees, they would give the property a wide berth and swim by way out in the lake. I never knew why until I read about the UV stuff. I haven't been back home to check out my theory since then, but have come upon deer many times in the dark that didn't know what I was until they got close.
It would be nice to have some controlled studies though. For example, train deer that there is food in a UV treated container. (set several containers out in the field, identical except one treated with UV brighteners and one then treated with UV Killer, move them around so you know they are not going by memory, but using their vision. Obviously smell will have some effect so hopefully you will only study the deer that approach from upwind). When they are consistently going straight to the UV treated container from upwind for food, treat the container and move it and see if they can find it again. Something along those lines.
Hi! This is shaman from Genesis 9:2-4 Ministries. I have moved my weblog to this location: http://genesis9.angzva.com/
I am interested in your comments regarding UV-Killer. I just wanted you to know that the conversation had moved. That weblog is no longer active.
I'm still not sold on UV-Killer. Dan Gutting of ATSKO sent me samples to try. Yes, in limited circumstances (Very limited), you could see it working as he described.
However, I question the whole premise.
Ok, I just bought another bottle because in the past I have had good results with it. This bottle is now watery thin, and while you CAN see the UVKiller working when you spray it on under the BLB light, the effect soon wicks away through the fabric and is mostly lost. I have tried spraying, drying, respraying, drying, respraying, ad nauseam. You do get a slightly cumulative effect by doing this but this seems to be an excessive amount of work just to treat one blaze camo vest. I can't imagine how this is supposed to be worthwhile... I sent a note to the company to ask why this is. The 'improved shelf life' version I had last was thicker, and didn't disappear into the fabric like this where it is practically useless. Now I can't go hunting today before the big storm moves in, because all my orange is smelly and wet from all the experimenting I've had to do to try and get this to work since it arrived in the mail the other day. I am not happy.
thanks, just noticed your comment about the other blog so went there.
I used UV killer in the early 1990's, and I was quite impressed with it. I had a fox come to within 5 feet of me and never saw me. It only ran when I made a noise.
That made me a believer in it. All these tests, they are looked at with HUMAN eyes, not animal eyes. Big difference.
An encounter with a fox is probably not a good example; there is no indication foxes can see in the UV range.
I've moved my weblog to this address:
genesis9.angzva.com/?p=1605
The link I just gave you has some real science that I reported back in September. Bottom line: Deer probably CAN see in UV, but the implications are probably the opposite of what Atsko would have you believe.
I have found that U V Killer does not have much of an effect on synthetic fabrics. I also did simple tests with camo fabric and a black light. The U V Killer did an amazing job on cotton and even wool, but it had almost no effect on polyester, of which most camo fabric is made.
Remember that I wrote this in 2008. Since then my view of this stuff has gone from bad to worse.
Check out my later stories on this issue on the new weblog http://genesis9.angzva.com/
The gist of the last posting on this subject is that the whole idea of UV suppression is a crock.
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